SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the sauce cast. Alright, we're back to the sauce cast. Let's go. It's been a minute since you and I sat down together. Just that's I know.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

I know. I mean the ladies wanted to take over. I know they do. I'm for it. I'm for it. I don't mind it. Lindsay can communicate. She's awesome. I've always said she's a better communicator than I am. Yeah. Any day. You know, she just has a way of like painting pictures. Yeah, she does. And simplifying things, but then articulating exactly and making you think. Yeah. You're like, oh, that's what I want to say. Right.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

So and then we've done, we're already at 13, I think. This is our 13th episode. It's been a great year doing some podcasts. Yeah. The last one you just did with I was it Irina and her daughter? Yeah. That one was heavy, man.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

That was powerful. Yeah. You know, and it's cool to um to be able to just walk into something like that because I wasn't, we weren't looking for it, right? Yeah, right. I literally got out of a service and they were in the next steps room. And we had been talking about those things. And she's like, I have a story to tell. And I was like, I think people need to hear your story. My favorite part of that whole thing was the nine-year-old who says, Boss, Mom, you need to take me to church. You support my sisters on their thing. You guys support me on this. That's God, bro. Nine years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like a boss. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I was listening to it, I was like, she reminds me of Josiah in the Bible. Yeah. Where you're like, I'm gonna do away with all the other stuff. We're going Jesus' way. And you know what's interesting? I met her.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

She's the sweetest skin in the world. So that to me, that had to be God that put that fire in her to be like, Absolutely, you are taking me to church. You know, what a story, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

What a story. Pretty awesome. And to think that sometimes when you see these things on the news, they can seem so far away, away from us. But the fact that this is right here in our backyard, yeah, like it requires us to kind of sit with ourselves and be like, no, we need to go on the offense as believers and really take a stand, like, no, we're pushing back darkness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

I think that's why I think God wanted them to tell that story to really bring it close to us, right? Because that now gives life and freedom to a lot of more people. I already heard you know some people talking about that. So praise God, because we overcome by testimony.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So yeah, it's been a beautiful thing. Beautiful thing. Uh, what I do want to hit this past Sunday, um, if you haven't listened to the message, don't drift, really hit our church really well. And I really feel like it was a start of something. Smith Wigglesworth, uh old, old school, what is it, 1947 is when he passed away. Yep. He had this prophecy that said that a great revival is gonna come when the word and the spirit come together in the church. And Sunday, this past Sunday felt like that when the I mean, we're a church all about the word and the spirit, but this past Sunday was something special. I feel like God really like released his blessing on uh kind of like touched and the church took a wave with it. So, in that, in this message, it was there was a lot, I'm sure a lot more you wanted to say. Yeah, what didn't you say that you want to s you wanted to say?

SPEAKER_04 2:59

Oh man, it I would say the it's the alarming, sobering reality that even in the drifting, my concern is it's not that everybody understands what it means to actually be a Christian. You know? Um because again, I'm speaking in general, the American church I think has been lulled to sleep for so long that we might think we might have something that we don't even have in the first place. So to talk about drifting, it's like it's one thing to think like, man, I I've kind of backslid a little bit, but the reality is I you can't how do you backslide from something you didn't have in the first place? Right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah, just because we are around it does not mean we have it. It's like again, that Judas effect. I can't stop thinking about that, right? But really wrestling with man, how many people are sitting in church but don't really know the Lord at all? Right, right. But they they're fine because it but the whole climate has created this like this is what Christianity is. Right. You know what I mean? We come, we sing some songs, and we listen to a message and we try to bet ourselves. Right. And it's like, man, that's scary to think that maybe we're even talking about something deeper than just drifting. It's like, do we even know what this means in the first place? Right. You know what I mean? Right. So to wrestle with that, and so I think I think there will be a part two and a part three with this because there's so much more we need to unpack.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Absolutely. You know, absolutely. I I find it funny, like you were saying, that people will say that they've experienced Jesus when it was one of the five things that they have to experience this faux peace or this faux freedom. It's like, and you've talked about it and the syncretism, like you've syncretized Jesus plus Buddha, Jesus plus Islam, Jesus plus self-help.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah. It's like what I again, I love Tim Keller, one of my favorite preachers, passed away. He's home with Jesus. But just listening to him again the other day uh explaining what it means to be born again and him making the point that look, you can make yourself a Buddhist, you can make yourself a Hindu, you can make yourself an atheist, you can make yourself an agnostic, but you can't make yourself a Christian. Wow. So for you to say I need to go experience this, it's like you can't make yourself experience something if God doesn't reveal it to you in the first place. Right? He gave the analogy of like when Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus, you must be born again. And Nicodemus is like, how in the world? Because again, he's thinking it's something I have to go do. Yeah, I have to go figure out how to have this born-again experience. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, look, for a baby to be born, a baby does nothing. It's the mom that does all the work of like birthing this newborn, which is again, it's an illustration of Jesus Christ's sacrifice for you to give you this new birth. Yeah. And he has to reveal it to you for you to get it. Yeah. So just that in itself tells me, like, again, we have we have ways to go to understand, like, like you can't just bring something in and say, Oh, I want to, I want to experience this. You can pray to experience it, but you can't make yourself experience it. That's that's revelation. God has to reveal that. Absolutely. The whole secretism thing is scary because again, we're thinking that Jesus is just part of another thing that we can bring in to make our lives better. Right. Right? Not realizing that actually the more you do that, the more you don't have the real Jesus. Because the real Jesus doesn't really share himself with others. Right. You know what I mean? He's holy, he's righteous, like he's completely separate from everything else. Absolutely. And if that holy, righteous God doesn't reveal himself, you don't have him. You have some version that you created, but it's not the real thing. Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And he said that right on the way, the truth, and the life.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

And the life. It's like we're not playing games here, right? It's not like I'm an option. It's like I'm I'm the only option. Well, there's no option. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Choose me or everything else. Yeah, that's it. You know, yeah. It's that what he said in Revelation 2, hot or cold, lukewarm Christianity isn't part of it. Like you're good for nothing, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:49

Right? It's like at least if you're hot, you have a purpose. If you're cold, you have a purpose. Right. But lukewarm, what what's the purpose?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

What is the purpose of a lukewarm believer? Absolutely. It's like um lukewarm cereal. No one wants that. That's disgusting, you know. You know, uh, but why do you think it resonated so well with the church?

SPEAKER_04 7:09

I I have to as cliche as it sounds, it's like it's the truth. Right? I think we are living in a time of such deception. And I mean, not just in society, but in the church, yeah, that all of a sudden it's one of those wake-up call moments that again, I can't make that happen, right? I'm just trying to be faithful to what I believe he's calling me to do. But even I myself am having a revelation of this reality that man, we we might be missing it, right? So I think I have to I have to say I have to attribute it to the Holy Spirit because if it's not, then it was just another nice cute message that I try to put together. But I'm just trying to be faithful and obedient to what he's revealing, right? And I think people who are in tune are waking up to that reality as well. You know, yeah. So that's what it felt like. It felt like a wake-up call.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah. And people, in essence, when they're in their mess and they're in or they're struggling and they're like they feel overwhelmed and like just baggaged on. That wake-up call is like, oh wow, yeah, that's what I was missing.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Yeah. I think so, right? I think that again, the the hope, right, is that we show up to something and pray that God now helps us to see the bigger thing that we're showing up to. Because we might think we're showing up to service, but God's like, I'm trying to do more with you than just a nice service. So if that happens and it starts to catch on, yeah, then it's like, okay, we're onto something here. Maybe God is moving among us and wants to do something deeper than just give us a nice little life. Yeah, right. You know, that we can synchronize with every other nice things that we have.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Right, right. Like hot yoga, nobody likes that. Nobody likes that. Yeah. Um, but what what we are doing today is kind of talking about your book because this is your third book, right? Yes, sir. It started what? You got the basics, untaining the Jesus from religion and be intentional. Which fun fact, I which I know because I'm around you, yeah, is these started from messages, sermons. Yes, yeah, they are. What made you go from sermon to book? Like, what was that like? Oh, I need to write a book out of this.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

It honestly is just like that that burning desire of like what else can we put in our the hands of people to be discipled, right? Yeah. And the other thing is it's like, look, you can you can preach a message, right? But there's so much more to be said that there's there's something to be said about putting it on paper now that go along with the messages. You know, uh Spurgeon, all his books are his sermons, basically. You know what I mean? That they would translate into so the I the idea um was actually something that I've always wanted to write. When I was in college, I was introduced to a class, spiritual formation. And that was my favorite class. Shout out to Pastor Jeff Parker was the professor, my favorite dude. Um I liked him so much, I invited him to my wedding. Hey, let's go. And fun fact, that class, Lindsay was in that class. No, I at that point we weren't a thing. Okay. Um but you saw him. I saw him. I'm starting to shoot my shots. Hey, let's go. I've always said the best thing about the the ENC and the loans was the fact that Lindsay came with came with my bachelor's degree. Let's go. Let's go. But spiritual formation was was big for me because it introduced me to Celebration Discipline by Richard Foster. I've always said outside the Bible, if I can get believers to read one book, it would be that. Such a good book. And that's a book you you can read over and over again. And that's a book that you don't have to really go in order. You can just like say, I want to deepen my understanding of one discipline and really go there. So I've always like, man, if I was able to write a book, I want to write a book about being intentional. Yeah. You know. So it's interesting that this became the third one. But again, there's always a season where God is just trying to teach you something and then you're ready to like speak into it. You know what I mean? But it's it's really that deep desire to help Christians understand that if God has revealed Himself to you, right, now you have all these incredible tools that are the means of his grace to deepen your understanding of not just his grace, but his goodness, his love, and his will for your life. So that's what this is all about, man. It's just like, man, how can I have a tool to help me deepen their understanding of this grace of God and his will for my life? I have to be intentional about it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah. And that's one of the commissions that Jesus gave, right? Teach them to do what I have commanded you. Yeah. So it's a spiritual awakening, but it's a practical uh life.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

You know, the the sad reality is this, right? It's I think one of the tensions in the church, again, I'm talking Capital C church, is that there's no discipleship. You know, it's like come encounter something, yeah, and then we think that's it. Right? But the real thing starts is when you become now a student, right? Which is a disciple, an apprentice. Yeah, right. Because the reality is like, how many people are walking around thinking that hey, Jesus is calling me to learn from him, but then to do what he does? Right. Right. How many people are actually thinking that? You know? Because most people are thinking, again, it's God, it's almost like God's here to bless what I want to do. You know what I mean? Which is the American gospel. It's not really the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's like come and die so that you may really live, right? Lose yourself so you can really find yourself, right? And if we don't have a pattern of like growth in that reality, then yes, we're gonna become less than that reality. And then the worst is we're gonna think we have it when we don't. Right. It's just really an American version of the honesty, the American dream versus Jesus' dream was that you would be a disciple, right? That you would follow him and be able to do what he does. Right. And if we're not doing that, it's like, are we really being followers of Jesus? Right. You know, and how you're gonna do that if you don't have a per a plan and a purpose too deep on your understanding of discipleship, you know?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Right. You don't come to Jesus to be happy, that's a byproduct. Yeah, you know, because you always say happiness requires a lot of things to happen. Right. But following Jesus requires, no, I'm gonna die to myself, I'm gonna follow him.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Yeah. And usually, right, I find that the more you try to pursue happiness, the more unhappy you are. Right. Right. And Jesus didn't promise happiness, he promised his presence, right? And if you know anything about his presence, that's where you'll find happiness, that's where you find joy, right? That's why the psalmist says, Man, that is one day in the courts in a thousand anywhere else. Why? Because in his presence, there's fullness of joy, joy, right? But you won't know that if you don't spend time with him, right? If you're not intentional about pursuing him, carving out real time. Not absolutely one of the the things that I'm I'm I'm wrestling with, it's like I think there's a difference between a devotional time and a real like carved out time with the Lord. Right. A devotional time is more like trying to check that religious box, clear your conscience. I did it, right? But man, uh an intimate time with the Lord is that sitting down and that wrestling and that like, oh man, I I don't want to leave your presence. I need to hear from you, I want you to mold me, I want you to shape me. And sometimes nothing happens, but it's like I want to keep showing up because I need your presence. Like I don't want to live without your presence. Right. That's the intentionality that needs to take place. I can't wait for my feelings to do that, right? Right. I need to carve out time intentionally because I know that I need his presence, right? Versus, oh, I just gotta get my devotional done real quick so I can move on with my day.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, you know what I mean? No, facts, facts. Because feelings, man, they come and go, but it the Bible says joy unspeakable. Right. It's like having this joy even in suffering. You can't be happy when you're going through heartache, but there's a joy that God gives only through his spirit when you're truly following him.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Yeah. Because the joy is his presence, right? Again, I can't sit here and produce joy. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Like I I would be here forever trying to produce joy. No, it's his presence, right? It's his presence that produces the right fruit, right? It's literally one fruit, right? It just manifests itself as love, joy, peace. It's not fruits. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And then you've heard me tell this joke before. You you will never walk by an apple tree and see an apple going, ah, I'm gonna be an apple today. Yeah, I'm gonna try video, you know. It's like no, the apple is abiding, right? Right? And it and at the right time, the apple becomes a full fruit, and then you can pluck it and enjoy it. Right. You know, it's like if you don't abide with the vine, then you're trying on your own. Like, I'm gonna be a Christian. First of all, you can't even make yourself a Christian. Facts. Never mind produce the fruit of the spirit. That only again, it's called literally the fruit of the spirit, right? Not the fruit of Elijah. Right. You don't want the fruit of Elijah. Exactly. That's why I need to abide.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Because you don't want me. Yeah, facts. You know what I mean? Facts, facts. So we've been, um, I've been in ministry for a little while. I've been around church since I've been born. I was probably birthed in the church. Um, and I've seen a lot of people come and go because they have had this big moment with Jesus, like this awakening, this like Romans, like the Spirit of God said, call out Jesus is Lord. They do. Then there's this dying down. Why is why is it so hard for people to discipline themselves and be intentional? Why did they give their soul the last thing on the on the walk of Christian faith?

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Again, I think we we really have a hard time separating feelings from principles. You know, I think that's why I felt so like one of the the the scriptures that really compel me to write, be intentional, is what I preached on in Hebrews when he says, hey, look, pay attention to these things you already heard, unless you drift, right? Because again, your feelings will take you places you don't want to go. Right. Right. There's a great hymn that says we're prone to wander, right? Prone to leave the one we love. Like you could love him, but you pro you're still a sheep, right? There's a reason why Jesus calls us sheep, right? It's not a compliment. You know, sheep are the dumbest animal ever. But they need constant reminders, right? They need constant guiding, right? The Lord's my shepherd, I shall not want. Like David is speaking out of experience, right? Right. And David himself wanders, right? Yeah, after a while. So I think it's that tension of like, especially some of us who grew up in more like a Protestant, you know, charismatic Pentecostal background. There's a lot of feelings driven. Nothing wrong with that, right? But I think you could become too reliable on your feelings instead of relying on the spirit that actually brought you here in the first place that revealed something to you. And there's something to be said about staying the course even when you don't feel something, right? Right, because you it's not a feeling, it's a reality, right? And it's a reality whether I feel it or not, right? So that's why I say I show up without feelings, right? And to me, it's like I always go back to this, right? No matter how I feel, he had already revealed himself to me. Right. And I can't shake that revelation that changed my life when I was 20 years old. So I always recount that reality, right? I I am gonna go back to that reality because I didn't make that up, right? Right, that happened to me. He revealed himself to me. I was minding my business 20 years old, thinking I'm going to this camp to have fun. Yeah, yeah. And he wrecked me. So I always go back to that. Like I can't get away from that first powerful revelation. So that always drives me. Right. I always go back to that 20-year-old who had that revelation to keep me pushing forward, no matter how I feel, no matter what's going on, whether I'm my prayers are being answered or not. It's like, no, that the ultimate answer to prayer happened when he revealed himself to me. Right. The least I can do is steward that by keep showing up and praying and reading by Bible. Today's Thursday, it's the day I fast, right? On purpose, intentionally doing these things to what? To deepen my understanding of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ and never take it for granted. Right. You know?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Right. And you're saying this thing, like it remember, you're remembering to remind yourself in this present, like my feelings may not be there, I don't care, but I remember.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Because in the Old Testament, the most we used word is the word remember. Right? He's constantly reminding his people that he's the same God that rescued him out of Egypt, that opened the Red Sea, that fed them in the wilderness, and they still forget. They sure do. And if they if they, with all those crazy physical manifestations of God's presence, forget, how many more of us, right? Yeah, who don't have those many things to recollect, need to really remember how far he's taken us. Right? Because again, if he hadn't revealed that to me when I was 20 years old, then I wouldn't be intentional about anything. Right. Right? Right. But because he revealed that to me and he it put that passion in me to not get away from that. Because the moment I do, I start to drift from what I really need, which is his presence. Yeah. You said that at church in the park, you gotta remember to remember. Right. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Yeah. But that's that's us humans, right? Like we we need constant reminders, which is funny because you would think naturally we would know what we want, but we don't. We don't we don't, you know what I mean? So we have to, we we need landmarks along the way. That's why I love this this uh again, uh if people are paying attention, even the the the cover, it's saying something like follow the light, right? Just just stay on the narrow, stay on the path, you know what I mean? Yeah, because again, he said narrow is the way to salvation, broad is the way to destroy. It's easy to to have many paths, right? But it's like can you stay locked in? Yeah, and and the to me, the way to stay locked in is to be intentional about the spiritual disciplines that he's provided for you.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, yeah, you know. And in Revelation says we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. So to keep going back to that reality, like in order for me to be intentional, I have to always go back to that moment. Like God saved me from this, for this. Now let's stick on the course.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Yeah, I have a prayer that I still pray from time to time. It's not very theologically sound, you know, but I'm I'm constantly asking him to save me again. Yeah, just because I don't want to lose the essence of what that means, right? Because again, feelings are not always gonna be there, right? Right? You know, people think because I'm a I'm a pastor, I'm a preacher, I'm constantly feeling. Like it's like, no, like even this Sunday, like to preach that message, and I was all over the place in my mind, right? And so I get up there and I and I read the scripture, all of a sudden it's like I'm on, you know what I mean? But it's like if I wait for the feeling to come, then I'm gonna be waiting for a long time and lose what I'm supposed to be doing in the first place. So I think that's the tension. It's like, man, I again, we are overly stimulated people, and I think that's the problem, right? Right? We're over stimulated. Simulated. Like the phone is we wake up with this thing in our hand. Right. Right. We go to bed with this thing in our hand. So no wonder like we're having a hard time being rooted and grounded in just silence. Right. Because one of the ways God speaks is in like deafening silence, right? When when he speaks, remember when Elijah uh was having his tension, right? And he's trying to run away, right? And God brings him to the place where he revealed himself. But he thought he's going to be like in this like crazy manifestation, like he was waiting for the storm, the rain, all of that. God was like, not today. Like in the scripture that says he spoke to him in silence. It's like deafening silence that God speaks. But if you don't create room for that, you're not going to get it, you're not going to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. And life is all about rhythms. Right. So finding that perfect rhythm. Well, not perfect rhythm, but that working rhythm into your daily life. Absolutely. You need that, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:55

I I I I think I talk about that in the book, right? Your your soul needs consistency and repetition. Right. Without that, you don't know where you're becoming if you don't have a rhythm that you're taking your soul through. It's funny because we are creatures of habit, right? We wake up in the morning, we we we usually brush our teeth and we shower. We do those things, but not realizing that hey, your soul also needs those rhythms. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Like we've been like nowadays, right? You know, like that there's big emphasis on meal prepping and all this stuff. It's like, yeah, do that for your soul too. Yeah, right. Very good. If you need rhythm for all these other things, how much more than your soul? I feel off when I don't start right. Like, I like I have a rhythm that if I don't, if I don't do it, like I guarantee you, if I didn't have my time this morning of prayer and reading the word, I wouldn't be able to have this conversation as freely as I'm having it right now. Because my soul needs that in order to do these things. Absolutely. Right. And it's in that rhythm that I have that I'm praying about all the things that are on my schedule today. Like I literally pray over the things that are on my schedule. You know what I mean? It's like like like I knew we were gonna have a meeting today with our pastors. I pray over that. I knew we're gonna do this, I'm gonna pray over that, and then all of a sudden there's an emergency that after this I'm gonna be part of. So I'm praying over that because it's like, man, I want God to be part of the day. Absolutely. But you have to start that way. Like you like I it's always funny to me when I hear people say, I pray when I go to bed. It's like, for what? You go to bed. Yeah, right. Look at you. You know what I mean? Usually my nighttime prayer is like a reflective time of like the day. So I'm praying over and figuring out when did I miss it? You know, I love doing the uh the lecture at night because it's like a reflective time of the day. Like when did I see God work? When did I miss it? You know what I mean? It's like that to me is the prayer it should be happening at nighttime. But it's like, man, if you're not doing a reflective prayer at nighttime, then what the heck did you do with your day? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

You don't mix again, intentionality. There's this um quote in Atomic Habits, it says, you don't rise to the level of your goals, but to the level of your systems. And with that little phrase from that whole book, from the whole book, that's what I took out. Um, I've done like the P90X. I'm not sure if you heard of P90X. Yes. I've read the whole Bible in 90 days. And what I loved about it, what I what it was grueling about it, and I loved about it, is it was like I had to spend an hour and a half every day in the Word of God. And man, what it did to not just my brain, but regulating all the chemicals, but what it did in my soul. And it brought me it brought me to life.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Absolutely. And I think there's seasons for that, right? Where you would really need to like just take in as much of the word as possible. And then there's seasons where you just need to slow it down. Slow it down. And just like one scripture and let it root like lately, the last uh, I don't know, several weeks, uh, I've been feeling strongly about I'm gonna take one of Paul's letters, the smaller ones, yeah, yeah, and and let it let that lead me through the week. Like this week is Ephesians. Let's go. Right? So starting on Monday, I'm reading Ephesians, but each day I'm reading a different translation. Oh, good. And and I'm allowing those scriptures to shape my prayer life. Oh, that's right. Right. So I'm literally taking and praying it, yeah, those scriptures and praying those scriptures over the church, right? It's really, really powerful to do that. Like I did that with Philippians the the week before, right? And again, it's like being in tune with again the rhythm and then the the creativity of the spirit that gives you these insights of like, hey, let's try this this time. You know what I mean? Let's do this. So that way you don't get stuck in a rut, right? You don't get stuck in the same old, same old. But I do believe that there's a difference between doing that and just doing a devotional. Right. I mean, again, nothing wrong with devotions, but I think there's something, there's more to it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

God wants to reveal something to you personally, there it is.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

And if you just ruminate in someone else's thing, you know what I mean? It's like second smoking. Yeah, right. Who wants that? Who wants that? You already chewed that.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

I don't want that. Or my favorite one is uh a proverbs of day keeps the stupid at bay or keep the stupid away or keeps the idiot away at bay. The dummy, the dummy, whichever one you want to use. So let me ask you this what chapter was hardest to write?

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Probably uh the uh the intentional presence one because it was powerful that season because uh there was a couple of people uh in our church who were uh battling uh some some serious sickness during that time. And that actually made that chapter come to life because of practicing the presence of God with people who were dying basically. There were two men in our church who are now been they've gone to be with the Lord. But that season was powerful for me because I was going to sit with these men and honestly, I didn't think you're going to minister to them, but they were ministering to you, right? Just sitting with them. Because sometimes when someone's battling, you know, an illness that's basically gonna lead to death, man, it brings different perspective, right? And the conversation you're having with these people are very different. And even that, right, you're you're you're you're praying, you're believing God to to change it. But again, this is where we're talking about the difference between uh the God that I want versus the reality that God is in control, I'm not, right? So that to me, that chapter was powerful because I was I was able to experience this with two men that I love dearly and seeing them suffer, but them having faith through all of that and trusting God through all of that. Um it was powerful because I'm praying that I personally want to slow down and really be in these moments more, and I'm praying that those who read the book can really grasp that reality. That a lot of times the best thing we can do is offer our presence. It's not having all the answers, right? It's not having much to say, but it's just being that presence, right? The story of Job is powerful, and his friends jacked it up because at first they went and they just sat with Job, but then they started to like dissect it from their own theological standpoint and thinking Job did something wrong, and they're accusing Job of doing something wrong as opposed to just being there with Job. Right. And in the end of the story, God is mad at them because he's like, You guys misrepresented me. All you have to do is show up. Right. So the ministry of presence to me is big because again, we're living in a overstimulated society, but also we're not present. Right. You know what I mean? We're constantly somewhere else. Like I could be having this conversation with you, but my mind starts to wander to something else. Right. And I'm trying to practice being fully present with the people in front of me. Yeah. So that that chapter to me was was powerful because there was like this tangible thing that was happening with these two men who have non-gone to be with the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Man, that's so good. Because what's good about it too is I was reading this, I was trying to rush through it. I get to that chapter, I'm like, I need to slow down.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Yeah. And I feel convicted about that, honestly, because um there's always something going on, right? And we have a big church, right? And on Sundays, like it's so hard because you want to be intentional about the moment, but there's so much happening, yeah, there's so many people, yeah, that my conviction lately is like, how can I slow down and just at least see one person? You know what I mean? So good. And not miss it. Right. Because I I will miss it, you know what I mean? Um, and I'm and I hate it when again when I'm doing my reflective time at night, that I'm like, man, I was rushing. Yeah, you know what I mean. I could tell that this person was trying to talk to me, but I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to rush to the next thing. Yeah. So it's still a work in progress. Right. You know.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

And it's it's pretty, it's difficult. It's a difficult muscle. Yeah. I remember um visiting a family because their grandma was in hospice and about to pass. It was one of those times where I felt Holy Spirit say, Slow down. So I slowed down and I'm just standing there. I I'm coming in as a pastor, so I'm coming in, you know, the last rites, all this stuff. And then I heard God say, Because you finally slowed down, I just need you to sing Amazing Grace. And I sang Amazing Grace, and I've never felt a moment like that where, you know, in this passing of life, she's she's going to the next the next place or she's going to the next world, like the peace of God just coming into the room. Yeah. Because I was able to slow down. It's like it's not about me.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

It's I'm here for the family. It's powerful, right? And and the the thing that I'm hearing too a lot in these moments now is man, we get to be part of these very sacred moments in people's lives, and people will remember that forever. Like I just had the privilege of doing that with another family. It was uh a couple of Sundays ago uh someone reached out that their mom was passing and it was like Sunday night. I just knew I told my family, I'm like, I need to go do this, right? And and going and just again slowing down and was like, okay, God, what do I do with this moment? And I just felt like sit, right? Sit with this because the the the father is there, right? And so I just felt like compelled to be like, hey, tell me your story, like tell me the story of you and this woman. And it was beautiful, man. It was powerful to hear this the journey of a couple, right? And this man who's been with this woman for a long time, I think it was like 40-something years, and now she's passing, and but he's right next to her, being taken care of her, she's been sick for a while, and then the story of their kids and their home and their upbringing. It's like, man, we get to be part of these moments, and we can miss it, yeah, right, if we're not really like intentional about the presence in that moment. Right. And I believe with all my heart that these people will remember those moments forever because it's those those sacred moments in life, you remember who was there. Right. You know what I mean? Very good.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

So yeah, and then you look at Jesus, right? Uh I know it might be uh a funny preacherism, but Jesus never ran anywhere, like he was he walked every place. One of the moments that I still go back to is when there's 5,000 people and he looks at them and his heartbreak says he has compassion on them because they're like a sheep without shepherd. Yeah, and then he just sits with them.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

And and he's so um intentional, right? Um again, I'm fascinated by Jesus because for many reasons, but when he went on this topic, it's that reality that man, he was fully present with people. Like he saw Nicodemus and he talked with him. Yeah, he saw the Samaritan woman and he talks with her, even when in that time period they wouldn't talk to women or Samaritans, right, for that matter, right? But he values each person, and he seems like he's ever in a rush. You should be the most busiest person in the world. Like you're the CEO of heaven, right? You know what I mean? Right. Your itinerary should be crazy, but he seemed like he had time to be where he needed to be. Right. You know what I mean? Facts. He blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, you know, even with the people who didn't like him, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

He still sat with them, still still sat with them.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Or shame like Nicodemus was ashamed to be seen with him in light, so he did it at night. Like at night, you know. Like, wait, what? And he went right for the jugular. Like, you must be born again. Every time, what do you mean how? My favorite one's Brute of Vikers.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

Oh man, like Matthew 23 is crazy. That's like gangster juice. Yeah, he's stuck in it.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Um, if there was one discipline that someone should start with, especially at the beginning of their journey, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_04 34:08

Oh, for me, it I think solitude is the is the main thing, you know, like carving out time to just be and try to hear his voice. Because it's so hard, right? Because everything is anti-solitude. Yeah, right. And let me just say this there's a difference between isolation and solitude, right? Very good. Right? Because isolation is not good, right? It's not good for men to be alone, but solitude is when you're purposely carving out time to be alone with your God, with your father. Like Jesus to me, again, I think we miss it, right? If you approach the gospels and just see Jesus as the Son of God, you miss it because he says, I put all that on the side. Philippians says he emptied himself and became fully human. So the goal was that to show us this is what it looks like to be fully dependent on the Father. And in the gospels, you see that rhythm where he takes time to get alone with the Father, right? He takes time to st to hear his voice because he's like, Man, I don't want to do anything without the Father, right? And that's that solitude, right? That quiet of my soul to hear the one who created my soul. And it's not like every day you're gonna hear something, but it's just like that discipline. Like I'm gonna position myself every day to be alone with the father so that I can hear his voice, right? And then uh marry that with his word, right? Because again, the father speaks through his word, right? But he but if you don't quiet yourself, it's hard to hear him, right? You know what I mean? And if you go try to read the Bible where your mind's clouded and you got a lot going on, you're just being religious, you know what I mean? But it's like that solitude of like for me, it's like I'm big on again the routine. It's like that's a daily thing for me. It's the same place, right? Yeah, it's the same like routine because it's just like I'm a creature like a creature of habit, but in a good way, where you you're intentionally positioning yourself to try to hear God's voice. So again, it's not like you're gonna hear something every day, yeah. But that discipline of showing up, you know, creates the rhythm for your soul, but also coincidence begins to happen, right? When you begin to to put yourself in a place over and over again. Yeah, yeah. Um, so solitude is a big one because uh everything in your world is telling you be around noise, be around people, be around a lot, and we start to equate being busy with being productive, it's not the same thing, right? You know what I mean? Right. It's like it sounds counterproductive to be still, but it's the more productive thing you can do because it's actually gonna make your day better. Absolutely because you you took time to be with the one that can actually give life to the things you're trying to do. It's like Jesus says, abide in me, and I'll abide in you. And if we do that, you'll produce much fruit. Yeah. He says, Apart from me, you can't do nothing. What in other words you're saying, like you can do a lot of things, but it's not gonna mean much. You know, so solitude to me is big.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Let's go. And Jesus says you'll be known by your fruit. Yeah, and you've given us such a great tool that our fruit would grow good, 30, 60, 100fold, and it will be for a lifetime. And so that's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:03

And I think I'm I'll touch on that this week with the message, is that you know, Paul says to the Corinthian church, he says, You got to test yourself to see if you're really in the faith. Like, don't just assume that you are, right? But how do you test yourself? It's your fruit, right? Right, you have to look and say, what and what is my life producing actually? Very good. Because again, we can be busy, but what are you actually producing? Right, right. Right? What do you be well, in other words, who are you becoming? Right? And what's coming out of you?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

You know, because it's in the tensions of life that the real you comes out, and it's like, man, if you don't like the fruits, like that tells you what you need to know, right? Yeah, that you haven't really been abiding enough for him to produce the right fruit in you, but it's you trying to make something happen. You know, if you find yourself always angry, frustrated, you know what I mean, always trying to find something else. It's like, oh, pay attention. Those are like the lights on the dashboard of your soul going, check the engine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you know change.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Awesome. Will you will you tell us where to find um this book? Oh, listen. Amazon.

SPEAKER_04 38:09

Got it. Listen, this world runs on Jeff Bezos' money. You know, you know, but can I say a funny thing about this? Look, I I worked on this, you know, me and the Holy Spirit. Let's go. Uh it's it's on Amazon for ten dollars. Jeff Bezos gets seven. No, I get three dollars. That's the reality. My God. But this work. That's just crazy. You know what I mean? Yeah, because you know it's funny when some people think, like, oh, you preacher's your money is like making three dollars. You know. Wow. But again, anyone that knows me knows like that's not really why I do it. You know what I mean? It's like I really want people to grow in their journey and their walk with the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

You know, absolutely. All right, so you can buy it on Amazon. And you're working on a um the audiobook too, right? Soon?

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Yeah, soon. Um, we should start recording that soon. Let's go. You know, because you got the people that have a hard time reading.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

So hopefully the audio can help. Let's go. Well, Pastor, thank you for writing this. Thank you for always thinking about the church and wanting us to grow into the um best believers and followers of Jesus that we can be. So appreciate you. Amen. Amen. Thank you.